Lying to Run Our Businesses? Part 1
Updated: Feb 15
The first two times I found a humanist to debate on Facebook (Ray Comfort’s page), the discussions never really turned into debates. The first one never responded, and the second one appeared to delete the thread.
This time we finally have some back and forth!
I debated with a gentleman who I will call “MW,” for the purpose of protecting his identity. He posted an interesting accusation against Christians:
MW: what if you're all lying and using religion to run your businesses?
Certainly, this is an absurd claim, and a claim that is based on presuppositions that cannot be accounted for within his worldview. This humanist/atheist presupposes that both “lying” and selfish gain are immoral. Yet, how can an atheist account for morals in his or her naturalistic, atheistic worldview? Below is the first half of our discussion.
Me: Hi Mark, it sounds like you are borrowing from the Bible to make your point, since the Word of God makes it clear that preaching the Gospel out of selfish ambition is a bad thing (Philippians 1:15-17). This is evidence that the Bible is true, because even when you try to insult the Bible, you have to borrow from it. Let me ask you this: hypothetically, if someone is preaching “lies” for the purpose of selfish gain, how is that a bad thing in your worldview? How do you define “truth” and “lie” in a naturalistic, atheist worldview? And how is being selfish a bad thing in an atheistic worldview? If we are all just byproducts of random chemical processes, then what does it matter? Even the concept of something being "true" or a "lie" is borrowed from the Bible...since the naturalistic, atheist worldview cannot account for such immaterial concepts.
MW: Why wouldn't man. We're nothing but selfish animals. Like every selfish animal on this planet. We just have a larger brain.
Me: MW, then "selfishness" cannot be a bad thing to you in your worldview. However, selfishness is indeed a bad thing in a biblical worldview. You just proved my point.
MW: Kevin I contend a little selfishness is needed for survival
Me: MW, if you believe that, then you just contradicted your original criticism. You used a moral argument to criticize the hypothetical scenario of Christians “lying” to run their “businesses.” If they are doing it for “survival,” then you should be okay with that. Also, “a little” is very arbitrary.
MW: I’m okay with it…I’m just waiting for the declaration of truth.
Me: MW, how do you define an immaterial concept such as “truth” in an atheistic, naturalistic worldview?
MW: Evidence leads to truth, come up with any lately?
Me: You didn't really answer my question. By “evidence,” you are probably thinking of material things such as fossils, rock layers, DNA, etc. You and I can both look at the same evidence and come up with different interpretations based on our presuppositions (i.e. creation vs. evolution). Therefore, the concept of “truth vs. lie" is both a moral and immaterial concept. The biblical worldview can account for moral and immaterial concepts, but your atheistic, naturalistic worldview cannot account for such concepts. Speaking of interpretations, if you believe in evolution, and if your brain is just a byproduct of random chemical processes, then how can you ever trust your own conclusions to be accurate?
MW: Yes material evidence. You got it, that's actually what it takes to prove a point. To pick truth out of thin air means to release every murderer in prison.
Me: What material evidence have you been using in our discussion to “prove a point”? Haven’t you been using immaterial concepts in an effort to “prove” your “points”? Consider your original comment that started this discussion.
MW: I'm using your lack of material evidence actually. The big turn-around won't work with me. You still have to provide your proof, after all it's you that are making the claims of a god.
Next week I will post Part 2 of this debate where you will see how I responded to MW's comment, and how the debate concludes!