In Part 1 of the Flood Morality Debate, KD attempted to charge God with immorality and “insanity” regarding the judgment of the Global Flood. I challenged KD’s basic presuppositions with the following question: by what ultimate standard of judgment is he charging God with supposed immorality and insanity? That question kicked off my discussion with KD. The debate continues in Part 2 of 4 below.
KD:
KH, The bible is your absolute moral standard? If so, why?
I have nothing compelling that would suggest that the mss are anything more than what man said God said.
Kevin:
KD, can you try answering my first question? By what ultimate moral standard do you “judge”? Also, your answer to my other question is arbitrary.
Yes, God’s Word is my absolute moral standard because the God of the Bible saved my life and supernaturally changed me over 7 years ago, and now His Holy Spirt dwells within me. Moreover, arguing against the Bible is like trying to argue against the existence of air. You would have to breathe air while making an argument against the existence of air. That is exactly what you are doing by “borrowing” the concept of morality and judgment. By claiming that specific acts of God are “immoral,” you are actually “borrowing” the concept of morality while trying to argue against the source of absolute morality.
KD:
KH, // can you try answering my first question? By what ultimate moral standard do you “judge”? //
I can't pretend to have an "ultimate authority." This "ultimate authority" notion is a bit foolish, and yet, it's meaningful for some. So, enjoy.
//Yes, God’s Word is my absolute moral standard because the God of the Bible saved my life and supernaturally changed me over 7 years ago, and now His Holy Spirt dwells within me. Moreover, arguing against the Bible is like trying to argue against the existence of air. You would have to breathe air while making an argument against the existence of air. That is exactly what you are doing by “borrowing” the concept of morality and judgment. By claiming that specific acts of God are “immoral,” you are actually “borrowing” the concept of morality while trying to argue against the source of absolute morality.//
I'm committed to a process, not a conclusion. However, I do work with theories of truth, measurable standards, and methods that do yield. With that said, I wish you the best but I don't find what you said to be compelling in any sense nor is it a disciplined view of the mss. May God bless.
Kevin:
KD, consider this: if you admit that you do not have an ultimate authority or ultimate standard, then how can you “judge” right and wrong? In other words, how can you charge God with immorality?
The “process” you describe sounds like the philosophy of empiricism. This is the philosophy that we can only know what is testable. However, the philosophy of empiricism is self-refuting: how does one empirically verify the philosophy of empiricism? Moreover, nobody is truly 100% empirical in practice, because we all start with basic “conclusions” or presuppositions, especially regarding our views of right and wrong.
Thank you for the kind words, and may God bless you too.
As I mentioned in Part 1, KD is not an atheist. He probably fits the definition of a “non-secular humanist.” I grew up as a non-secular humanist…I believed in a generic “God,” but I made up my own rules of right and wrong. I just assumed that God always approved of what I did, because I created an imaginary God that believed what I believed. Ironically, my own “ways” led me down a path of corruption and suffering. Thankfully, we can know God's ways through His special revelation: the Word of God.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.–John 1:1 (ESV)
God's ways are infinitely better than my ways.
Oh how I love your law!
It is my meditation all the day.
Your commandment makes me wiser than my enemies,
for it is ever with me.
I have more understanding than all my teachers,
for your testimonies are my meditation.
I understand more than the aged,
for I keep your precepts.
I hold back my feet from every evil way,
in order to keep your word.
I do not turn aside from your rules,
for you have taught me.
How sweet are your words to my taste,
sweeter than honey to my mouth!
Through your precepts I get understanding;
therefore I hate every false way. –Psalm 119:97-104 (ESV)
I was glad to see KD show some kindness, especially since I do not always receive the same kindness and respect that I strive to exhibit in these discussions. The rest of the debate maintains the same cordial tone. In my next post, I will share Part 3 of 4 of the debate where KD says that he is "...willing to explore what judgment might look like through more than one lens."